View Full Version : More Ares I Development Problems: Is it Really That Bad?
Note: Direct and EELV supporters should read this. -Rick
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Written by Ian O'Neill
There's been a lot of bad news surrounding the development of the Constellation Program of late. We've had news of general design flaws, rebelling NASA engineers, failed parachute tests, budget overruns, vibrational issues and job losses. Now we have a new one to add to the mix, the Ares I launch vehicle could bump into the launch tower during blast-off. According to a Florida report, only a tiny gust of wind is required to cause the rocket to hit the tower or scorch it, causing catastrophic failure and/or costly damage to the pad.
You'd be forgiven for thinking Constellation is a failed project, that is obviously going to overrun, obviously going to cost too much and is obviously a waste of time. But forget the media naysayers for a moment. Despite the challenges faced by NASA engineers, a bumpy road on the way to launching the most advanced rocket system ever devised is well worth the ride…
Back in August, I reported on the testing of the Ares and Orion parachute systems. Very little news was available about the Ares parachute successes, so the focus was placed on the spectacular failure of the Orion test vehicle ([Only Registered Users Can See Links]), which fell to the ground like a stone (captured in full video glory). This wasn't a critical failure of the technology, it was more of an experimental anomaly. After all, isn't that what test flights are all about?
Then there was much emphasis placed on the predicted vibrational problems facing Ares I during launch. Fortunately, as Nancy reported on August 19th, NASA engineers had a solution. Just when the NASA engineers thought they were winning, a few days later a report comes out saying the old Apollo era crawlerway would not be able to support the weight of a fully laden Ares rocket (cue more budget over-stretching).
More bad news has come from other areas too. During the transition from the Space Shuttle to Constellation, it was estimated that 8,000 jobs would probably be lost ([Only Registered Users Can See Links]). Even after this projected number was reduced to 3,000-4,000 job losses ([Only Registered Users Can See Links]), US Senator Bill Nelson said that NASA job losses and an increased dependence on Russian space vehicles will result in "generating jobs in Russia." However, this argument may not hold water for much longer as the Russian Soyuz manufacturer has run out of money ([Only Registered Users Can See Links]).
Now prepare yourself for some more bad news. The Orlando Sentinel has published an article entitled "Is NASA's Ares doomed? ([Only Registered Users Can See Links] age=1)" Oh dear.
This headline comes in response to computer models that show the Ares I rocket could get blown into the launch tower during lift-off. Ares I could experience "liftoff drift", a phenomenon that occurs when the rocket's solid-fuel motor ignites, making the 309 ft (100 m) Ares I "jump" sideways. If this should occur during a breeze of a little over 12 mph (19 kmh), Ares I could fall into its launch tower, or cause severe and expensive damage to the tower under the extreme heat of its boosters.
"We were told by a person directly involved [I]that as they incorporate more variables into the liftoff-drift-curve model, the worse the curve becomes," said an anonymous NASA contractor. Contractors are not authorized to talk about Ares development, but the contractor continued, "I get the impression that things are quickly going from bad to worse to unrecoverable."
But are these problems insurmountable? Surely NASA engineers will find a solution to this difficulty (much in the same way as they found an answer to the vibrational problems)?
"There are always issues that crop up when you are developing a new rocket and many opinions about how to deal with them," said Jeff Hanley, Constellation Program manager. "We have a lot of data and understanding of what it's going to take to build this."
The Orlando Sentinel also posted information about continuing rifts in NASA pointing out that a growing number of engineers are quitting the Constellation program through fears of unrealistic goals and safety concerns, calling the whole Constellation concept into question.
"If they push hard enough, yes, it will fly," said one disgruntled NASA engineer working on Ares. "But there are going to be so many compromises to be able to launch it, and it will be so expensive and so behind schedule, that it may be better if didn't fly at all."
In my view, any massive project like Constellation will attract its critics. Ares and Orion are new technologies where NASA engineers will have to make some huge strides to make it work. As already mentioned, the Ares rocket system is going to fly, but it might overrun in spending and schedule. However, all these challenges will be worth it when we see the first Ares I launch from Cape Canaveral in six or seven years time.
Never before have we had the opportunity to build a space technology not only used for transportation to the space station, it will be used to facilitate the next lunar mission, and eventually a trip to Mars ([Only Registered Users Can See Links]). These projects come at a huge cost for the entire nation, but like the run-up to the Apollo missions in the 1960's, the US needs to build an enthusiasm for the future of space flight. We are on the cusp of a huge advance for mankind, there's no budget or timescale for that kind of achievement.
It may not be politically or economically realistic, but more money should be ploughed into NASA and Constellation. This is a momentous challenge requiring a momentous effort from the nation. Let's just hope some of the spending promises of the presidential candidates last beyond November 4th…
1. Ares and Orion are new technologies where NASA engineers will have to make some huge strides to make it work.
2. As already mentioned, the Ares rocket system is going to fly, but it might overrun in spending and schedule. However, all these challenges will be worth it when we see the first Ares I launch from Cape Canaveral in six or seven years time.
3. Never before have we had the opportunity to build a space technology not only used for transportation to the space station, it will be used to facilitate the next lunar mission, and eventually a trip to Mars ([Only Registered Users Can See Links]).
Poorly written article. Only somebody uninformed would be swayed by it.
1. Incorrect. Orion and Ares are not new technologies. NASA chose existing technologies to "keep" the costs down and make it easy. There shouldn't have to be huge strides to make it work. But because of the bad decisions in the architecture, the gap is larger, the costs are more and the vehicle isn't working quite right.
2. Why are they worth it? Especially, when some of the delays and overruns can still be avoided.
3. Wrong again. Ares I/V is not the only opportunity. There were shuttle architectures than would have supported a lunar landing. There are ELV architectures that support ISS missions and lunar landings.
This quote in the article "But there are going to be so many compromises to be able to launch it, and it will be so expensive and so behind schedule, that it may be better if didn't fly at all." is very true
Once Griffin is gone, NASA can stop getting the shaft (Ares I) from him
Me2, has anyone, I mean anyone out there in the news world or blogosphere that supports Ares written an accurate article in your opinion?
klydemorris
11-20-2008, 11:57 AM
Me2- how would- say, an ELV switch, at this time, close the gap, and by how much? Also, by switching to an ELV can you say that we would be 100% secure from ANY additional cost over-runs or additional delays from this point in development- including the time required for contracts? Lastly- if the Ares-I/I-X did not fly at all, exactly how would that be "Better" for the nation as a whole?
Me2- how would- say, an ELV switch, at this time, close the gap, and by how much? Also, by switching to an ELV can you say that we would be 100% secure from ANY additional cost over-runs or additional delays from this point in development- including the time required for contracts? Lastly- if the Ares-I/I-X did not fly at all, exactly how would that be "Better" for the nation as a whole?
Switching to an ELV would be cheaper and quicker than Ares I, that's all that matters. Whether they say it will take 3 years and it takes 4, that is better than the 5 more for Ares I
As for cost, there is no over run possible. "manrating" isn't going to cost the 5 billion plus for Ares I development. The EELV already exist. A new pad would be cheaper than Ares I-X, New MLP, or LC-39 mods.
NASA already has the EELV's on contract. That's how OSP was going to work.
Ares-I/I-X not flying means the nation isn't hand tied to an expensive, constrained launch system that will fly infrequently
Me2, has anyone, I mean anyone out there in the news world or blogosphere that supports Ares written an accurate article in your opinion?
no, because they are just regurgitating NASA PR. No independent confirmation
Every news source???? :rolleyes:
Come on... Look I am not trying to be sarcastic (too much) here, but I've seen nothing that you've provided to provide independent confirmation about anything, except subjective anti-Ares regurgitated personal opinions.
Me2, I respect your opinions, but you have no faith in anyone that reads your posts.
klydemorris
11-20-2008, 03:35 PM
Switching to an ELV would be cheaper and quicker than Ares I, that's all that matters. Whether they say it will take 3 years and it takes 4, that is better than the 5 more for Ares I
As for cost, there is no over run possible. "manrating" isn't going to cost the 5 billion plus for Ares I development. The EELV already exist. A new pad would be cheaper than Ares I-X, New MLP, or LC-39 mods.
NASA already has the EELV's on contract. That's how OSP was going to work.
Ares-I/I-X not flying means the nation isn't hand tied to an expensive, constrained launch system that will fly infrequently
What you state is"...all that matters" BUNK. Give me numbers- not just take your word for it. What's your source? Be exact rather than talk in general terms with so much fill in the blank between that anything can fit in there. Come on Me2- give me hard numbers and sources that will convince me and others that you actually know what you are talking about... ya' know... like an engineer or a program manager would use to make a point.
Frankly- if you do not have the numbers- and I mean ALL the numbers as well as sources that will lead me to them so that I can read them myself, you have NO credibility and it is you sir, who are "just regurgitating."
Every news source???? :rolleyes:
.
Yes, everyone because they are too lazy. SOP for news sources is to just regurgitate NASA press releases. They don't go do research to find out that everything is fine. The investigative reporting looks for dirt.
What you state is"...all that matters" BUNK. Give me numbers- not just take your word for it. What's your source? Be exact rather than talk in general terms with so much fill in the blank between that anything can fit in there. Come on Me2- give me hard numbers and sources that will convince me and others that you actually know what you are talking about... ya' know... like an engineer or a program manager would use to make a point.
One number is all that is needed and you can find it yourself. It cost less than 5 billion dollars for two companies to develop, test and fly 2 different launch vehicles from 2 different pads on 2 coasts.
For OSP, back in 2003, it would have cost around $500 million for a dedicated EELV pad for manned flight.
OSP was going to use these same vehicles. It was going to cost billions.
Yes, everyone because they are too lazy. SOP for news sources is to just regurgitate NASA press releases. They don't go do research to find out that everything is fine. The investigative reporting looks for dirt.
Your bias is noted. Please provide factual information, as you've basically insulted every major news gathering organization.
klydemorris
11-20-2008, 09:49 PM
One number is all that is needed and you can find it yourself. It cost less than 5 billion dollars for two companies to develop, test and fly 2 different launch vehicles from 2 different pads on 2 coasts.
For OSP, back in 2003, it would have cost around $500 million for a dedicated EELV pad for manned flight.
OSP was going to use these same vehicles. It was going to cost billions.
Gee... I was sort of looking for... ya' know... REAL numbers that would compare and contrast both systems thus showing clearly that ELV was better than Ares I- including all of the details such as ground servicing, control, contract re-bidding and awarding, etc. Ya' know, something besides "take my word for it" and a few, again vastly open ended examples that prove nothing at all other than the fact that you have NO real numbers or data to back up your point- so you offer these lame examples in a very poor attempt to talk around my direct question.
Fact is, you don't really know that what you say is true, because you have no numbers other than this toss-out 5 billion figure with nothing to contrast it to.
I must say- you're really failing to convince me here.
If you want us to believe that the ELV route is better than the Ares I route- give us your data.
I must say- you're really failing to convince me here.
If you want us to believe that the ELV route is better than the Ares I route- give us your data.
Unfortunately, what you wish will not happen.
I enjoy conversation about making sure that our space program, specifically the manned space program stays intact, but Me2 has not, in my opinion provided any real data, other than generalities to fit his goal of ridding the world of Ares.
I too am not convinced, and doubt that our fellow member here can provide any real information to sway my current opinions.
Your bias is noted. Please provide factual information, as you've basically insulted every major news gathering organization.
You will find that there are very few major news "gathering" organizations, especially printed or web based. Most just use the AP feed.
1. ground servicing, control,
2. contract re-bidding and awarding, etc. .
1. NASA buys launch services for spacecraft. It does need to worry about details of ground servicing and launch control of the launch vehicle. It pays a set fee for a launch
2. The contract already exists. It is the NASA Launch Services Contract. no rebidding required.
A Delta IV costs in the 200-300 million range. Through in a new pad, 1 billion (500 million in 2003) and manrating changes and another billion (5x the amount that LM said would be needed for Atlas).
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ULA has only 1500 people at the Cape, Denver, VAFB and Decatur. This supports 3 product lines, two factories, 2 launch bases and 7 pads. Labor costs alone are at least 10 times less
You will find that there are very few major news "gathering" organizations, especially printed or web based. Most just use the AP feed.
Here's a short list of some of the media outlets. Yes, they use AP, but yes, they also have their own reporters/bloggers etc.
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1. NASA buys launch services for spacecraft. It does need to worry about details of ground servicing and launch control of the launch vehicle. It pays a set fee for a launch
2. The contract already exists. It is the NASA Launch Services Contract. no rebidding required.
NASA might not, but contractors for NASA do.
klydemorris
11-21-2008, 02:36 PM
Me2
That still does not answer the question and as Rick pointed out, simply distorts the truth... again. Seems to be the common tactic among the few, but overly outspoken anti-Ares crowd.
What you've just said is that NASA can simply truck an Orion over to the Delta IV facility and stick it atop a launch vehicle without a single additional bid or contract. That's nonsense- NASA can't move a porta-potty without bids and contracts.
So far as your figures for the Delta IV- thank you. Let's all look them over.
Your figures for the Atlas V, however, appear to be about a billion more than the Ares I-X... is that were you were goin' with that?
To other readers- my personal view is that I could care less if the Orion launches atop a Delta IV, Atlas V or Ares I, I just want to see human spaceflight by the United States continue and the gap to close. I am, however, fed up with seeing the Ares I program and the honest people who are currently working hard to carry it out belittled by a few cyber blowhards using distortions and cherry-picking facts then using them out of context. The Ares I-X will continue to stack and will fly as long as the people here in DC , at NASA HQ and on the hill decide to keep it going. No internet or forum poster can change that. Of course some may want to stand near the crawlerway and toss river rocks at it as it moves to the pad- just to make themselves feel better.
Me2
1. What you've just said is that NASA can simply truck an Orion over to the Delta IV facility and stick it atop a launch vehicle without a single additional bid or contract. That's nonsense- NASA can't move a porta-potty without bids and contracts.
2. Your figures for the Atlas V, however, appear to be about a billion more than the Ares I-X... is that were you were goin' with that?
1. It is called a launch service task order. That's how spacecraft get a launch. Most of the work is already done. Orion interface requirements have already been defined. Turning on ULA do to the work and including the development time (man rating and pad build) would still beat Ares I since the J-2 is the long pole
2. The pad cost is for one pad only. either Either Delta or Atlas. The LM billion is manrating costs which would be applicable to either vehicle. Both "billions" would have to be amortized over the total number of flights and added to the vehicle costs. So, 20 Orion flights would mean 100 million added to the 200-300 million for a Delta IV.
Wrt your comment about Atlas numbers over I-X. I-X is a stunt vs Atlas is an operational vehicle
.
1. I am, however, fed up with seeing the Ares I program and the honest people who are currently working hard to carry it out belittled by a
2. few cyber blowhards using distortions and cherry-picking facts then using them out of context.
3. . The Ares I-X will continue to stack and will fly as long as the people here in DC , at NASA HQ and on the hill decide to keep it going. No internet or forum poster can change that. .
1. Why then do you care that the Ares program gets belittled.
2. Don't know who you are talking about here. Never said anything that was a distortion. The facts stand alone. Ares I is a bad design/concept and it being run by an organization that had little experience in launch vehicle development and it shows
3. And many of those on the internet are working behind the scenes to change NASA's course
klydemorris
11-22-2008, 08:08 PM
1. Why then do you care that the Ares program gets belittled.
2. Don't know who you are talking about here. Never said anything that was a distortion. The facts stand alone. Ares I is a bad design/concept and it being run by an organization that had little experience in launch vehicle development and it shows
3. And many of those on the internet are working behind the scenes to change NASA's course
Once more- lots of wind without anything to back it up... yawn.
And many of those on the internet are working behind the scenes to change NASA's course
Where, other than NSF? Why the internet? Are they afraid to expose who they really are? If dissenters are not using proper channels in their work enviornment (if that's who you are talking about) to expose a possibility of flaws, if that's truly the case, they should not be doing it via an anonymous tool like the internet. They should resign or be fired.
Once more- lots of wind without anything to back it up... yawn.
What do you have to backup your side, that is independent of NASA PR? you have no inside information, you are not privy to SBU documents, You don't get internal emails from fellow workers that point out the problems, All you see is someone saying "ignore the man behind the curtain"
Where, other than NSF? Why the internet? Are they afraid to expose who they really are? If dissenters are not using proper channels in their work enviornment (if that's who you are talking about) to expose a possibility of flaws, if that's truly the case, they should not be doing it via an anonymous tool like the internet. They should resign or be fired.
That is not what I had said,
Zerm said "No internet or forum poster can change that"
I said "many of those on the internet" which referring to "internet or forum posters" and "working behind the scenes" meaning not on the internet but in the course of normal work, just not in the limelight
Is their work that they are doing part of their daily tasks that they were hired to do?
JimMcDade
11-26-2008, 11:36 AM
Rick, I am feeling refreshed and renewed after my brief vacation from reading the garbage posted by the anti-ARES/anti-NASA gallery.
It appears that we have an over-supply of rocket scientists these days. The internet is no better as a truth-seeking avenue than are radio talk shows.
It also appears that President-elect Obama plans to accelerate roll-out of Ares I. I am pleased to read that he is not giving credence to the nay saying nabobs of negativity who live a daily existence of rumor and conspiracy mongering.
It will be an exceptionally pleasant event when I am standing somewhere in the KSC area watching Ares I safely haul a crew into orbit.
PS- How's it hangin' Klyde?
Glad to see you back Jim! :)
random123
11-26-2008, 05:46 PM
It will be an exceptionally pleasant event when I am standing somewhere in the KSC area watching Ares I safely haul a crew into orbit.
I hope to be there too! :)
For my two pence worth (I'm from 'across the pond'), yes, Ares I has problems (oscillations etc), but all programs that deal with this level of technology are going to have problems. No one design is going to be perfect first time, if ever.
Call me naive, but I would trust all those involved in the decision making process at NASA to choose the right design concept for the job. They looked at the proposals (including DIRECT) and Ares came out the best.
Now Ares is moving forward, surely it's better for everyone to get behind it and push it forward. If there are flaws, do something about it rather than complaining on forums etc
Personally, I would quite happily sit ontop of any rocket, even if I knew I wasn't coming back! Whichever system you happen to use, human spaceflight is going to remain a risky business for a long time to come.
PS This is my first post - not too much noob-bashing please!
random,
Thanks so much for joining this ongoing discussion, and exercising your right of free speech on this website forum.
We all look forward to your future contributions.
P.S. No noob bashing needed or required. :)
klydemorris
11-26-2008, 07:36 PM
Rick, I am feeling refreshed and renewed after my brief vacation from reading the garbage posted by the anti-ARES/anti-NASA gallery.
It appears that we have an over-supply of rocket scientists these days. The internet is no better as a truth-seeking avenue than are radio talk shows.
It also appears that President-elect Obama plans to accelerate roll-out of Ares I. I am pleased to read that he is not giving credence to the nay saying nabobs of negativity who live a daily existence of rumor and conspiracy mongering.
It will be an exceptionally pleasant event when I am standing somewhere in the KSC area watching Ares I safely haul a crew into orbit.
PS- How's it hangin' Klyde?
You haven't missed much so far as the Ares-I haters go- mostly re-runs of the same empty twists of history and half-truths. Once more Me2's lines have degraded into the "Oh yeah, well what do you know about it?" playground retorts. I asked for solid numbers and detailed facts to help me come around to his point of view and when it all boils down, his only depth is the "Well who're you?" retort.
That's kind of my point here- when you take someone so consumed with dislike of this sort and you keep pinning them down to give you their side IN DETAIL (as I said- details like an engineer or program manager would need) you find that they can express very little in the discussion. They are often helped here on the internet by forums where an anti-Ares atmosphere is fostered, but on sites like this, where the field is more even, they're not so tough.
Klyde, (the cartoon strip) is hangin' well- about 9 odd million readers in the aviation and aerospace industry world-wide. My nasa.gov readers count has been going steadily up. O'Keefe became a reader after we met at X-Prize and I have some other top names as well. I've been told that "Mike" and "W" have both read my work... doesn't increase the $ any, but it's kind of fun to think about. I asked the sources in both cases how they knew? One said because he'd put the strip on the boss' desk himself and the other said because he knew the person who carried it in. My ego'll buy that:rolleyes:
Now Ares is moving forward, surely it's better for everyone to get behind it and push it forward. If there are flaws, do something about it rather than complaining on forums etc
That would be an ideal situation Random123, but I doubt this will occur until those who oppose Ares are witness to a success.
Short of that, those who do not agree with be a semi-solid brick wall in NASA's attempt to continue their plans without significant opposition by a very small minority.
klydemorris
11-27-2008, 09:58 PM
That would be an ideal situation Random123, but I doubt this will occur until those who oppose Ares are witness to a success.
I have to disagree with you here Rick. Even if the Ares I-X is a 100% success in every way, these people will still find some convaluted way to call it a failure. That includes saying that there were failures on the mission, but they're being covered up by NASA and only a few people on the inside are whispering the truth- etc. And that's the good news. The bad news is if there is the smallest of glitches on the Ares I-X it will be inflated to the greatest extent by the anti-Ares types. Even after the Ares-I has been in operation and done dozens of successful flights, they'll still find some way to make it look like they're right and have been right all along.
That's just the way these people think apparently. If it did not go exactly their way on their favored booster with their favorite spacecraft- it's a failure and a waste and no one can say otherwise... at least to them.
Keep in mind that there are still leftovers from the 70s who will tell you that the Space Shuttle program has been a huge failure.
It also appears that President-elect Obama plans to accelerate roll-out of Ares I.
That is not what the plans are. The plans are to accelerate Orion. And the way to do that is to use other launch vehicles.
Also Anti-Ares is not Anti NASA. Actually the opposite, those who are concerned for NASA fear that Ares will be its downfall
Now Ares is moving forward, surely it's better for everyone to get behind it and push it forward. If there are flaws, do something about it rather than complaining on forums etc
That is a great idea. Keep a bad program going forward
You haven't missed much so far as the Ares-I haters go- mostly re-runs of the same empty twists of history and half-truths. Once more Me2's lines have degraded into the "Oh yeah, well what do you know about it?" playground retorts. I asked for solid numbers and detailed facts to help me come around to his point of view and when it all boils down, his only depth is the "Well who're you?" retort.
That's kind of my point here- when you take someone so consumed with dislike of this sort and you keep pinning them down to give you their side IN DETAIL (as I said- details like an engineer or program manager would need) you find that they can express very little in the discussion. They are often helped here on the internet by forums where an anti-Ares atmosphere is fostered, but on sites like this, where the field is more even, they're not so tough.
I provided numbers, numbers that a lay person could understand, you just refuse believe them.
And what do you know about it? Where is your proof that I am wrong, independent of NASA spin?
NASA was going to use EELV's for VSE because of the fiscal constraints. The current administrator ignored this and pushed his pet project despite the constraints and the technical risk
klydemorris
11-28-2008, 11:02 PM
I must admit- there was a numaric digit involved there... I think it was a 5.
And thanks again for the ""What'duh you know about it?" retort... saves me the trouble of going to the local school yard and asking a 5th grader to do the same task you were asked.
If your facts, e-mails, inside details are so good that you've set out on this hate the Ares I crusade- present them in detail. Of course you cannot, because you don't have anything other than your dislike for the program and these inflamitory statements that you post over and over, like a bad commercial. And when someone presses you for the facts and details you fall back on stuff like "Oh you wouldn't understand it." A classic dodge normally used by- someone who really does not know what they're talking about.
I asked you to convince me of your point of view by using numbers and details such as those that an engineer or a program manager would use. If the best you can come up with is the digit 5... well readers- what does that tell us?
You've not convinced me of anything. In fact, you're even poor at double talk and question dodging when it comes right down to it Me2. Perhaps you should stick to a plan such as standing beside the crawlerway and tossing a stone at the Ares I-X as it rolls past.
"toink!"
That is not what the plans are. The plans are to accelerate Orion. And the way to do that is to use other launch vehicles.
Also Anti-Ares is not Anti NASA. Actually the opposite, those who are concerned for NASA fear that Ares will be its downfall
Sorry Me2. The plan is to accelerate Constellation, which includes Orion and Ares.
Nice try though. :)
I have to disagree with you here Rick. Even if the Ares I-X is a 100% success in every way, these people will still find some convaluted way to call it a failure. That includes saying that there were failures on the mission, but they're being covered up by NASA and only a few people on the inside are whispering the truth- etc. And that's the good news. The bad news is if there is the smallest of glitches on the Ares I-X it will be inflated to the greatest extent by the anti-Ares types. Even after the Ares-I has been in operation and done dozens of successful flights, they'll still find some way to make it look like they're right and have been right all along.
That's just the way these people think apparently. If it did not go exactly their way on their favored booster with their favorite spacecraft- it's a failure and a waste and no one can say otherwise... at least to them.
Keep in mind that there are still leftovers from the 70s who will tell you that the Space Shuttle program has been a huge failure.
Wes, all I can say is that I hope you are wrong in regard to your first sentence. I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I downfall of mine it seems apparantly.
1. Why then do you care that the Ares program gets belittled.
Pride and trust perhaps, knowing how successful NASA has been in the past designing, building launch vehicles, even when it needed to compromise due to stingy federal budget allocations?
Open your mind and think outside the box Me2. Please? :)
Is their work that they are doing part of their daily tasks that they were hired to do?
Still waiting a response on this one.
klydemorris
11-29-2008, 07:28 PM
I want to take a moment to make it clear to readers... again... that I'd be happy as heck to see Orion boosted on an Atlas V or Delta IV or anything else if it will narrow or close the gap. I just do not believe that is going to happen or that switching now to either of those boosters will narrow or close the gap. I believe that NASA will stay the course with the Ares I.
Additionally, I think that departing from the method of lifting reentry and landing is an error repeated from the early 60s. A more robust and safer version of the a lifting rentry and pilot landed vehicle was well within our reach in 2003. I, for one, would have liked to see the HL20 fully developed, but "I" am not NASA and NASA HQ decides which way things will go rather than some jet jock sitting here at a home computer. So- I'll cheer on Orion and and whatever the powers that be here in DC decide will finally loft it. I do not, sit here and spew cyber venom at what I can not control.
I do, however, continue to dream of the HL20 *sigh*:rolleyes:
kmfischer
12-13-2008, 09:56 AM
Yes, everyone because they are too lazy. SOP for news sources is to just regurgitate NASA press releases. They don't go do research to find out that everything is fine. The investigative reporting looks for dirt.
Good investigative reporting is not about "finding dirt"; it is about uncovering and accurately reporting all the facts. Journalism may be going to hell in the US lately, but the core principles of journalistic integrity are sound; it just takes longer to find anyone consistently adhering to that standard of conduct.
Pride and trust perhaps, knowing how successful NASA has been in the past designing, building launch vehicles,
NASA hasn't designed one since the late 60's. It should let industry do the job
Why? They haven't exactly failed in the past. Why let private industry take a stab at it when NASA has a proven record.
You need to give NASA some slack. Who really cares that's in been since the 60's since they designed one.
Why? They haven't exactly failed in the past. Why let private industry take a stab at it when NASA has a proven record.
You need to give NASA some slack. Who really cares that's in been since the 60's since they designed one.
because the experience is gone. NASA doesn't have the money, or time to relearn it.
Private industry wouldn't have take at "stab" at it, they would do it, they are the experts and know how to
Also MSFC track record isn't great, it failed with X-33, X-37, X-34, SLI, OSP, HST, etc
NASA doesn't need to be nor should it be duplicating what private industry can do.
NASA should be doing spacecraft and missions beyond LEO. Access to LEO can be provided by industry cheaper and just as reliable
Still waiting a response on this one.
yes.
because the experience is gone. NASA doesn't have the money, or time to relearn it.
Private industry wouldn't have take at "stab" at it, they would do it, they are the experts and know how to
Also MSFC track record isn't great, it failed with X-33, X-37, X-34, SLI, OSP, HST, etc
NASA doesn't need to be nor should it be duplicating what private industry can do.
NASA should be doing spacecraft and missions beyond LEO. Access to LEO can be provided by industry cheaper and just as reliable
With the present rumours of the Obama administration wanting to possibly use other countries launch vehicles, the whole discussion might become moot anyway. Including those who desire an EELV or Direct to launch Orion, unfortunately.
JimMcDade
12-16-2008, 02:56 PM
This is semi-serious, but... perhaps President-elect could combine space policy with saving the Big 3 auto makers.
Back in the early days, the Chrysler Corporation did a very good job as the production contractor for the legendary Redstone rocket. It is true that von Braun had to watch Chrysler like a hawk after finding that they did not always follow specs to the degree that he desired, but bringing at least one of the Big 3 into the space program cash cow could deliver a lot of mid-western political support for the space program.
Ford's Philco was also a big part of the early space age. Kraft and the Houston engineers almost insisted that Philco provide the communications electronics for the MSC.
Now, it's true that the Big 3 did not build any of the stages for the Saturn V, but that is probably because nobody in Detroit could build anything that was good for 480,000 miles back then. (I realize that the lunar round trip was actually much more than 480,000 miles, but I was only making a joke.) - Jim McDade
With the present rumours of the Obama administration wanting to possibly use other countries launch vehicles, the whole discussion might become moot anyway. Including those who desire an EELV or Direct to launch Orion, unfortunately.
It wasn't to see if other countries can launch Orion for the US. It is selling Orions to other countries for their own use
This is semi-serious, but... perhaps President-elect could combine space policy with saving the Big 3 auto makers.
Back in the early days, the Chrysler Corporation did a very good job as the production contractor for the legendary Redstone rocket. It is true that von Braun had to watch Chrysler like a hawk after finding that they did not always follow specs to the degree that he desired, but bringing at least one of the Big 3 into the space program cash cow could deliver a lot of mid-western political support for the space program.
Not viable
1. Redstone was a large volume production contract. Ares is only 2-4 missions a year.
2. It is a zero sum game. New Orleans is losing the ET production work, Ares work will replace some of it
3. there are no facilities in the midwest for this work. Chysler performed the work in a US gov't plant in the south. It didn't use autoworkers
4. Ares production is not the same as Redstone. Boeing is doing design and devlopment work on the Ares upperstage in addition to production. Ares is closer to the traditional aerospace model
5. the value of the Ares work is minor compared to the help the big 3 need. This wouldn't even help them, it would divert attention and resources from their core business
It wasn't to see if other countries can launch Orion for the US. It is selling Orion's to other countries for their own use
Not in the latest reports. A prior article that was discussed did mention what you say. The new 'rumor' says nothing about selling Orion's to other countries while still maintaining our own launch vehicles for Orion.
It's hard to keep up as his position keeps changing week to week.
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