Ares 1 Reborn?

[spacefan]

Check out this site.

http://atk.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=118&item=1057

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/bu..._r=1&src=busln

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...887509152.html


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12394991

I guess Me2 would consider this to be the ultimate kludge but as the 5 seg SRM is more or less done and Ariane5 is already operational and LM are still doing Orion could we see a rebirth of the stick?

[Rick]

Probably not if Me2 has his way and forces them to cancel it.

[spacefan]

Not if ATK can overcome the main objection to Ares1 namely the development cost, and bring cost per launch down. This proposal has the advantage that it can leverage existing Cx infrastructure and the 5 seg SRM's can be made available for any proposed HLV. Further by man rating the Ariane core stage europe is that much closer to fielding thier own manned capsule. I cant help thinking that this may have some friends on the hill.

Both ATK and EADS are serious players in the business they must feel that thier proposal can be competitive and you can call me a sucker for marketing but I quite like the sound of "Liberty Rocket"

[spacefan]

Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ATKRocketNews

[Rick]

Not if ATK can overcome the main objection to Ares1 namely the development cost, and bring cost per launch down. This proposal has the advantage that it can leverage existing Cx infrastructure and the 5 seg SRM's can be made available for any proposed HLV. Further by man rating the Ariane core stage europe is that much closer to fielding thier own manned capsule. I cant help thinking that this may have some friends on the hill.

Both ATK and EADS are serious players in the business they must feel that thier proposal can be competitive and you can call me a sucker for marketing but I quite like the sound of "Liberty Rocket"

I never figured out the argument of cost. I can't remember anyone who said that manned spaceflight would be cheap.

[Rick]

Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ATKRocketNews

Sure looks like Ares I to me!

[spacefan]

Cx was designed to be expensive lots of juicy pork and cost+ contracts. Like it or not the commercial paradigm has gained overwhealming momentum even dinosaurs like ATK have to get with the program.

If you stick any rocket on top of an SRM its going to look like Ares1. Actually the liberty rocket looks better than Ares1.

[Rick]

Personally, it doesn't matter to me how we get humans into space as long as we do.

I do disagree with your cost assessments however. Do you think the US would ever have gotten to the moon in 69 on the cheap?

No how, no way.

[spacefan]

Not my assesment ATK reckon development costs can be slashed and are quoting $180m/ launch. Remember the whole point of commercial is an attempt to capture the entrepreneurial spirit and to eliminate costs by eradicating excessive Nasa oversight.

America is up to its eyes in debt and the Apollo days are long gone and are never coming back. In these times thrift is a virtue and governments are looking for value for money. Personally Iam unsure if the liberty rocket is the best value out there.

[Rick]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/5...ocket.html.csp#

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ATK moving forward with Liberty rocket

By Steven Oberbeck
and Dan Weist
The Salt Lake Tribune
First published Feb 09 2011 08:00PM
Updated Feb 9, 2011 09:36PM

Regardless of whether the government agrees to help fund Alliant Techsystems’ rocket that would take astronauts to the International Space Station, the Utah company intends to move forward with its project because it believes there will be no shortage of commercial customers.

<!--STORYGRAPHS: 1-->ATK and a partner on Tuesday unveiled the two-stage Liberty rocket that they want NASA to use as the next launch vehicle for the U.S. space program. And they are hoping the space agency will see fit to award it at least a portion of a $200 million pool of money set aside for promising projects.

<!--STORYGRAPHS: 2-->“With that seed money we would be able to test launch Liberty in 2013 and have it fully operational by 2015,” said ATK spokeswoman Trina Patterson. “Absent that funding, our first test would be in 2015, with the Liberty fully operational a couple of years later.”

<!--STORYGRAPHS: 3-->Despite ATK’s willingness to fund the project on its own, Rep. Rob Bishop, R-Utah, is urging congressional leaders to continue to invest in manned space flight and said if the Liberty program takes off, it will be a bonus for the country.

<!--STORYGRAPHS: 4-->“The solid rockets that propel manned flights for NASA take the same personnel to build as the solid rockets for our missile defense,” Bishop said. “So simply, if you screw over the manned space program you also screw over the work force that does our defense systems.”

<!--STORYGRAPHS: 5-->The Liberty rocket would use a Utah-built solid-fuel motor similar to those used for the space shuttle as the first stage, with the second liquid-fueled stage produced by a European company,Astrium. Both companies boast that their motors have been used on dozens of successful flights.

<!--STORYGRAPHS: 6-->Yet melding the two technologies — the companies have never worked together before — remains a challenge. “We have a team of 30 people working full time on that goal as we speak,” Patterson said.

<!--STORYGRAPHS: 7-->ATK unveiled its Liberty program as its response to a request from NASA, which is looking for a commercial rocket system that it can hire to take its astronauts and cargo into space rather than buying rockets from contractors.

“NASA may want to use Liberty, but even if it doesn’t, we have other potential customers,” Patterson said, suggesting the rocket may be used to put defense satellites into orbit and eventually to help private companies expand into the space tourism business. “It is a growth opportunity for us.”

<!--STORYGRAPHS: 1-->ATK, which has about 2,100 aerospace employees in Utah, has gone through a series of layoffs in the past several years as defense spending changed gears, work ebbed on the soon-to-end space shuttle program and President Barack Obama demanded NASA focus on a wider commercial development of space rockets.

<!--STORYGRAPHS: 2-->Patterson said if NASA accepts the company’s bid to use the Liberty rocket it would help preserve 400 Utah jobs.

<!--STORYGRAPHS: 3-->NASA spokesman Michael Braukus said federal procurement laws prevented him from discussing or even acknowledging whether others beside the ATK consortium have presented competing offers for commercial space-launch services.

<!--STORYGRAPHS: 4-->He said NASA is expected to announce by the end of March which commercial system it intends to support.
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[spacefan]

I guess they really believe in the concept. There is no way they can touch SpaceX for value but is $180m for aprox 20mt to LEO competitive with EELV's if so they may be in with a chance for commercial crew.

[Rick]

I guess they really believe in the concept. There is no way they can touch SpaceX for value but is $180m for aprox 20mt to LEO competitive with EELV's if so they may be in with a chance for commercial crew.

I find it ironic that we are attempting to STILL get astronauts in LEO, decades after we first achieved that goal.

The US space program is in reverse gear.

I guess that those who are SpaceX fans, figure that they will not run into any problems that could significantly increase its budget to become virtually non-cost effective.

[spacefan]

Thats the whole idea of commercial crew robust redundant access to space, if there is a problem with a parlicular launcher just use one of the other ones until they sort it. I do agree that the US space program has been rather shambolic of late but this new direction really does have some exciting elements that can be built upon such as Bigalow's habitat modules and SpaceX's falcon and dragon.

The liberty rocket does seem an odd bird, surely it would make more sense to strap 2 3seg solid motors to the side of the ariane5 core stage and create an americanised version of ariane5, even less development would be required.

[Rick]

Thats the whole idea of commercial crew robust redundant access to space, if there is a problem with a parlicular launcher just use one of the other ones until they sort it. I do agree that the US space program has been rather shambolic of late but this new direction really does have some exciting elements that can be built upon such as Bigalow's habitat modules and SpaceX's falcon and dragon.

The liberty rocket does seem an odd bird, surely it would make more sense to strap 2 3seg solid motors to the side of the ariane5 core stage and create an americanised version of ariane5, even less development would be required.

I don't disagree. The problem is I find it difficult to see how we can manage more than one launch configuration, when there is continued wrangling in regard to one.

[klydemorris]

I've just been having a total blast watching all of the Ares I phobics as they come unglued over this one. They actually thought that all of the (dare I say it?) SUNK COSTS were going to be set behind and forgotten about and the evil of all evils, ATK was going to fade into the fog left behind by the phobic's salvos of venom filled internet posts on assorted forums.

Me2 and his ilk of Ares I phobics simply cannot figure out that in the real world, what they spend their time posting on the Internet means NOTHING in this process.

I'm loving this!

[Rick]

I've just been having a total blast watching all of the Ares I phobics as they come unglued over this one. They actually thought that all of the (dare I say it?) SUNK COSTS were going to be set behind and forgotten about and the evil of all evils, ATK was going to fade into the fog left behind by the phobic's salvos of venom filled internet posts on assorted forums.

Me2 and his ilk of Ares I phobics simply cannot figure out that in the real world, what they spend their time posting on the Internet means NOTHING in this process.

I'm loving this!

I agree. I find it comforting in a way that many considered Ares I a viable solution. Forget about cost, I am speaking of the technical advantages of it.

[klydemorris]

If you think it's fun now Rick, just wait'll they start stacking this one in the VAB. The phobics heads will be exploding like muppets!

[spacefan]

.

ATK have taken a hell of a slamming with the cancellation of Cx and the retirement of shuttle. Personally I think its the kick up the ass they needed, as they have come out swinging with an innovative proposal.

This proposal has the advantage that it can utilise much of the existing Cx development. The question is how much development is needed to convert the ariane5 core stage to the upper stage of the liberty.

I guess Cx fans will feel a measure of vindication if liberty rockets and a shuttle derived HLV with 5seg SRMs gets developed. However any such development will be carried out under the new commercial paradigm.

[Rick]

.

ATK have taken a hell of a slamming with the cancellation of Cx and the retirement of shuttle. Personally I think its the kick up the ass they needed, as they have come out swinging with an innovative proposal.

This proposal has the advantage that it can utilise much of the existing Cx development. The question is how much development is needed to convert the ariane5 core stage to the upper stage of the liberty.

I guess Cx fans will feel a measure of vindication if liberty rockets and a shuttle derived HLV with 5seg SRMs gets developed. However any such development will be carried out under the new commercial paradigm.

I don't have an issue with commercial, as long as there is a backup. Interesting how politics and anti-Ares hate killed Constellation, especially considering its resurgence.

[Rick]

If you think it's fun now Rick, just wait'll they start stacking this one in the VAB. The phobics heads will be exploding like muppets!

The anti-Ares (style) folks diatribes are becoming stale.

If they are true believers in HSF, they should support ANY means of continuing spaceflight.

Guess they're not.