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    KSC Employee / Inside KSC.com Owner Rick's Avatar
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    Default NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,513231,00.html

    NASA rocket scientists secretly working on what they say is a better, safer rocket want President Obama to ditch the space agency's official space-shuttle replacement design and pick theirs instead.
    Representatives of the alternative project, named DIRECT, met with members of Obama's transition team before the inauguration in January and are now pressing Congress and the White House to order an independent review.

    The renegade NASA engineers, along with others from space contractors such as Boeing and Lockheed Martin, began meeting secretly three years ago to share doubts about the Ares I and Ares V rockets, which are the linchpins of the upcoming Constellation program.

    The DIRECT team counters that their single 'Jupiter' rocket could be off the ground sooner than the Ares, that all of its parts have been already tested and that it would cost less money.

    The scientists, who have been collaborating after-hours in Internet chat rooms to discuss fuel-mass ratios and rocket trajectories, insist on remaining anonymous and leave their public comments to a spokesman.
    "The reason we have to be unnamed is NASA has a reputation for making life miserable for anyone who's working on [DIRECT]," said an engineer who works at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida and asked not to be identified. "Quite a few have been transferred to undesirable locations."
    NASA denies taking punitive action against DIRECT project participants.
    "What they do in their own time is their business," said agency spokesman Grey Hautaluoma.

    So far, reception to their ideas from political decision-makers has been less than enthusiastic.
    Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., who chairs the Senate Subcommittee on Science and Space, "sees no reason to second-guess NASA's own experts," his office said.

    A White House spokesman said the Obama administration would not comment on Constellation and the alternative proposed by DIRECT until it names a replacement for former NASA Administrator Michael Griffin, who stepped down in January.

    Constellation, which will replace today's space shuttle, aims to put men back on the moon by 2020.
    NASA designed the Ares I rocket, which is based on a modified version of the space shuttle's solid-fuel booster, to lift light payloads such as crew capsules.

    The Ares V, based on the shuttle's large external fuel tank and coupled with two extended shuttle solid-fuel boosters, would launch heavier equipment such as the main part of a lunar-mission craft.
    But both are already over budget and behind schedule, and engineers from DIRECT say they also suffer from substantial design flaws.

    "Ask me if Ares will fly, and I'll say 'Yes, just not very well,'" said the Kennedy Space Center engineer. "I was an Ares fan. But it only took me about three weeks of having access to the classified documents to see a problem. ... I'm looking at this thing and saying to myself, 'This is ridiculous.'"

    The U.S. Government Accountability Office reported last month that the development costs on Ares I alone, which is projected to cost between $17 and $20 billion over its lifespan, have already been increased by $300 million and the craft's first manned mission has been pushed back a year until 2015.

    "The Ares I and Ares V are going to cost around $15 billion each," said Ross Tierney, a 34-year-old British space enthusiast living in Florida who's a founding member of the DIRECT project and acts as its spokesman. "If you used one launcher, you could cut the development costs in half."
    DIRECT scientists argue for multiple configurations built around their simpler Jupiter design, which uses fewer engines than Ares V on the central fuel tank, along with unmodified shuttle boosters.

    The Jupiters could ferry into orbit the new Orion crew capsule and the extensive amounts of equipment and fuel required for a lunar mission more easily and a lot sooner than the Ares rockets, DIRECT's members say.
    NASA spokesman Hautaluoma said the space agency had considered using the Jupiter rocket, but decided it lacked the firepower for a moon mission.
    "We found the Jupiter Direct more than necessary to get to the space station, but not enough to get to the moon," he said. "Plus Ares is safer."
    Some third-party observers would tend to agree with NASA in the dispute.
    "There are always people, especially in engineering, who think they can engineer the problem better," said Louis Friedman, executive director of the Planetary Society, which promotes space exploration.

    "[Jupiter Direct] is perceived as sound at heart. It's not crackpot. But there's also not a lot of feeling like these guys have the answer and the way the Ares guys are going at is all wrong."

    Congress' biggest space-related concern right now is the looming five-year gap between the end of the space shuttle program next year and the beginning of the Constellation program in 2015, at the earliest.
    Unless the shuttle missions are extended, American scientists and astronauts will have to hitchhike into orbit, mostly aboard Russian spacecraft.

    NASA is at a crossroads amidst the debate.
    Its shuttle program, which first went into space in 1981, is mostly remembered for the Challenger and Columbia disasters, in which 14 astronauts lost their lives.

    Its primary mission, the construction of the International Space Station, seems lackluster compared to past achievements, like the moon landings of the Apollo program.

    "With the human program, they've had themselves in a box with a shuttle that really doesn't go anywhere," Friedman said. "NASA's biggest problem is it hasn't been inspirational, and without that it's difficult for them to make the case for more money."
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    Rick - Inside KSC Site Owner/Proud KSC Employee


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    KSC Employee / Inside KSC.com Owner Rick's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    Unfortunately for Direct supporters, I believe Jupiters time has passed.

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    The Space Exploration Roundtable Moderator JimMcDade's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    What a joke. Similar stories have dotted the media landscape this week. Ross T and his Jupiter pals are exploiting news reporters who just don't know better. This is merely a last gasp act of desperation by the Jupiter Direct advocates who are apparently starved for attention.
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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    I think we have to see who replaces Griffin, but the length of the delay in doing so is not helping Direct at all.
    Steroids wouldn't have saved Apollo from cancellation...

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    The Space Exploration Roundtable Moderator JimMcDade's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    J, That is a good point. I don't see a "tear-down and restart" as a realistic possibility at this point. It's already way too late.

    What amazes me more than anything is how a non-resident, alien drifter- backed by a group of fellows with either dubious or irrelevant professional credentials- can buffalo so many reporters and editors.

    Similarly, I don't know if Ross & Co. actually got farther the outer "reception area" of the Obama transition team, but I am sure that the poor folks in that office have had to sit down and listen to the rants of hundreds of other kooks as well. The Area 51 tin-foil hatters probably got as far inside the Obama transition team corridors.

    Somebody should hire Ross to run their marketing department. Ross has done an admirable job of creating an illusion of credibility for his team. The Direct flap was great mostly PR for a credible, but previously rejected proposal.
    “The sky is NOT the limit!”- Jim McDade

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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    Quote Originally Posted by JimMcDade View Post
    J, That is a good point. I don't see a "tear-down and restart" as a realistic possibility at this point. It's already way too late.

    What amazes me more than anything is how a non-resident, alien drifter- backed by a group of fellows with either dubious or irrelevant professional credentials- can buffalo so many reporters and editors.

    Similarly, I don't know if Ross & Co. actually got farther the outer "reception area" of the Obama transition team, but I am sure that the poor folks in that office have had to sit down and listen to the rants of hundreds of other kooks as well. The Area 51 tin-foil hatters probably got as far inside the Obama transition team corridors.

    Somebody should hire Ross to run their marketing department. Ross has done an admirable job of creating an illusion of credibility for his team. The Direct flap was great mostly PR for a credible, but previously rejected proposal.
    I have to step in for a minute here in Direct's defence.
    Comparisons with moon-hoaxers and tin-foil-hatters is not valid. Direct does not require rewriting the laws of physics and it is essentially a sound proposal. Detractors of the design seem to overlook the fact that Direct is just another flavour of SDLV, based on components that are better understood than Ares-V will.
    As I have concluded in the past, it is just a case of where you put your priorities. Ares offers the potential for an extremely safe CLV coupled with a very high capacity CaLV. If everything gets funded then all will be well. Direct offers the potential for costs savings at the expense of changing to a two-launch architecture and a slight reduction in safety.
    IMHO, the STS stack is currently so close to meeting the needs of the VSE that it is not sensible to modify it to the extent that Ares requires. But, obviously, YMMV.
    Steroids wouldn't have saved Apollo from cancellation...

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    The Space Exploration Roundtable Moderator JimMcDade's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    There are some commonalities with moon-hoaxers and tin-foil-hatters there. I see both the availability heuristic and representativeness bias at work in the push behind the Jupiter Direct concept. Those flaws should not to be confused with any faults in the Jupiter Direct design itself. Jupiter Direct stands on it's own merits. It is the fact that the core Jupiter Direct advocates intentionally or unintentionally exploited those flaws that so commonly plague human cognition and lead large numbers of people to false conclusions in spite of a dearth of substantial evidence to support conspiracy claims. The Jupiter Direct guys started out OK, but then they degenerated to the level of chemtrail hoaxers when they called Griffin and company liars while offering up a shoddy flurry of unsupported and unverifiable insider claims.
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    KSC Employee / Inside KSC.com Owner Rick's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    Quote Originally Posted by J.McDonald View Post
    I have to step in for a minute here in Direct's defence.
    Comparisons with moon-hoaxers and tin-foil-hatters is not valid. Direct does not require rewriting the laws of physics and it is essentially a sound proposal. Detractors of the design seem to overlook the fact that Direct is just another flavour of SDLV, based on components that are better understood than Ares-V will.
    As I have concluded in the past, it is just a case of where you put your priorities. Ares offers the potential for an extremely safe CLV coupled with a very high capacity CaLV. If everything gets funded then all will be well. Direct offers the potential for costs savings at the expense of changing to a two-launch architecture and a slight reduction in safety.
    IMHO, the STS stack is currently so close to meeting the needs of the VSE that it is not sensible to modify it to the extent that Ares requires. But, obviously, YMMV.
    I agree with you in part John.

    The situation is actually, that several contractors, including the contractor I work for are bidding for several Ares V contracts.

    As good as Jupiter might be, and I think it is, the train has already left the station.

    No matter what anyone tells you, it would cost a fortune, and be as far as economical as one can understand to switch to a new launch vehicle.

    I heard in September that Ares was dead, because of the PDR that took place, per the Direct team. As Jupiter is having growing pains, so is Ares. Whether an outsider, or a disgruntled work is questioning NASA's honesty is that the issues that Ares has been having have been addressed.

    The fact of the matter is, and how many times that Direct supporters bang on President Obama's door, for good or for bad, Direct is a dead issue.
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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    I'm afraid I just don't share your optimism about Ares. Not that the design is unworkable (TO and base-heating are, I'm sure, within the capabilities of NASA's engineers), but that the funding will fall through.

    Think back to the early 1970s. NASA wanted the moon, Mars, a space station, and a shuttle. How many of these did they actually get?
    Today, NASA wants a LEO rocket and a moon rocket. I'm sure that, one way or another, NASA will be putting crews into LEO using Orion by 2020. It may be Ares-I underneath the capsule, but it could be an EELV.
    I just don't have a lot of faith that Ares-V won't go the way of OSP, Freedom, X33, NASP, NLS, LFFB, Shuttle-C, ASRM, or ACRV. Since building STS, NASA does not have a good track record of completing its manned spaceflight projects- even ones which had contracts in place and had passed design milestones.

    One of the biggest 'selling points' of DIRECT is that even if a Shuttle-Freedom situation emerged, i.e. only the first phase was properly funded, you'd at least be left with a pretty decent medium-launcher, with all the pieces in place for a return to the moon as when the funding could be secured for the LSAM and some kind of upper stage.

    If Ares-I is funded but Ares-V is delayed or cut, then we are really no closer to the moon than we were back in 2004, because we still have to build a heavy launcher virtually from scratch.
    Steroids wouldn't have saved Apollo from cancellation...

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    KSC Employee / Inside KSC.com Owner Rick's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    I don't disagree. I didn't say I was optimistic, but was relaying factual information. Having said that, one must admit that the current state of Constallation has progressed further than the canceled programs you mention above.

    I'm wary however, as a new administrator has not even been named as of yet, to provide some sort of ship steering for NASA.
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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    Yes the lack of a new administrator doesn't help anybody, no matter what their POV. It shows that NASA is far from being a priority, which is worrying.
    I wonder if the latest noise from Russia about a new spacecraft and rocket will change anything.

    Out of the programs I mentioned, or other similar efforts, did any get as far as Ares-I has? I'm pretty sure many of them got further than Ares-V has to date, but obviously that program is only just getting started.
    Steroids wouldn't have saved Apollo from cancellation...

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    KSC Employee / Inside KSC.com Owner Rick's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    Quote Originally Posted by J.McDonald View Post
    Out of the programs I mentioned, or other similar efforts, did any get as far as Ares-I has? I'm pretty sure many of them got further than Ares-V has to date, but obviously that program is only just getting started.
    I'd tend to disagree, as contractual work has already left the starting line that involve many potential subcontractors. (I gotta stop with these ridiculous euphemisms I'm using. )
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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    I'm not sure I can believe you, Rick. Ares-V has barely started. X33, to name a high profile example, was well down the line before it was canned. ACRV flew its test hardware several times. NLS passed its PDR. These all seem to be ahead of Ares-V. I bet some cancelled programs even got further than Ares-I has. I haven't looked exhastively at cancelled programs so these are just the ones I know off the top of my head.
    Steroids wouldn't have saved Apollo from cancellation...

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    KSC Employee / Inside KSC.com Owner Rick's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    Wow John. Okay.

    I don't think that any time on this or any other forum I've made up, or embellished the truth.

    As I am involved in Ares work, and the company I work for is involved with getting Ares V and Altair contracts, doesn't necessarily mean I need to stretch the truth to get my point across. I'll leave that stuff for the anti-Ares folks to do. (I am not speaking of you).

    All I have been doing is relaying real information, that is non-proprietary or limited information in its scope.

    No offense to you or anyone else, but I've got better things to do than dream up scenarios that don't exist.

    In reality, as I am involved in Shuttle and ISS as well, I wish NASA would extend the STS program to keep my job intact a few more years, but have congress fund Ares so both can co-exist. That's becoming more difficult and the infrastructure at KSC is changing to support Ares, which includes a new ground operations support contract.

    In the end of course, believe what you think you should beleive in.

    -Rick

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    Supporting Member Bob's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    rick,
    Thank you for all the work you do at Cape Canaveral!

    I really envy you!!!

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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    Sorry, Rick, that came out a bit wrong!
    All I was trying to say was that, if you use typical project milestones (hardware flown, tests, PDR, CDR, etc) as your yardstick, then Ares-V still has a long way to go. And that previous programs have been cancelled much later in development than this. Hence my general pessimism!

    If you think that Ares-V stands a better chance of surviving cancellation or near-indefinite delay, then that would be very interesting.
    Steroids wouldn't have saved Apollo from cancellation...

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    KSC Employee / Inside KSC.com Owner Rick's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    Thanks for the clarificatioon John. I was getting a bit worried there.

    All I know, is what I know. I do know that contractors around the country are clammering to get contracts for Constellation. NASA at this point is listening. Now, 2 years from now when a new NASA administrator is named (its taking forever!), hopefully sooner than later, we'll all have a better understanding of the future of spaceflight.

    I know this sounds awfully generic and you are a specifics hound ( ) I can't give you any more detailed information.

    The difference I think that exists between Ares, EELV and Direct, is that NASA is looking at Ares only, per the decleration back in 2004 from the Bush Administration. I attend meetings weekly regarding Constellation, and the latter two options are never discussed. About a year ago, EELV hit the mix, but have heard nothing since then regarding an EELV being used to launch Orion.

    Direct has never been mentioned in any meeting I've ever attended, except Florida today articles that are quickly debunked as a personal preference. I'm not sure if you follow Florida Today, but they are anti-space, anti Ares. When Mike Cabbage, who I've spoken to after the Columbia disaster for a Flatoday.com article that he wanted to quote me on, left Florida today, the "Blog" on Flatoday.com has become, well, less then objective.

    Sorry for rambling, but I needed to vent a bit.
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    The Space Exploration Roundtable Moderator JimMcDade's Avatar
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    Default Re: NASA's Secret Rebels Want Obama on Their Side

    Let's review some history for a moment. The Jupiter Direct proposal, originally the fruit of an old NASA/USAF funded study (National Launch System), was basically appropriated by the Gang of Five(GoF) and presented to the general public largely through web pages and a minor paper presentation that garnered very little notice in the professional aerospace community.

    The NLS design was sound, but the GoF seriously erred when they got too excited about Ares I engineering difficulties and repeatedly declared that the end of Ares I was nigh. The GoF members were repeatedly prone to exaggeration and offering false hopes of doom and gloom for Ares I.

    The GoF now has a long and storied history of unrealized prophecies. Thrust oscillation, column buckling, launch drift, and broad accusations against NASA officials about NASA deception and GoF claims of outright lies by Griffin and other NASA leaders were presented as show stoppers over the last couple of years. I actually can't recall all of the antics of the GoF PowerPoint/Adobe Acrobat Reader artists since the very beginning of their obsession, but they have displayed some of the worst behaviors that we see coming out of that larger community of conspiracy and hoax proponents.

    The name-calling and defamatory comments posted on sites such as NASASpaceFlight bothered me even more than the premature claims of doom that the GoF published here and there.

    NASA claimed that they gave the NLS a fair review (Who knows if they actually did?), and found the concept to be unsatisfactory for their plans.

    Over the last few months, we have witnessed several 11th hour desperation activities coming from the GoF. The exploitation of mediocre media outlets such as Popular Mechanics by the GoF led to a series of articles that reached a general audience that is already largely skeptical of all government agencies, including NASA.

    A sociological energy loop occurs when mediocre mass media outlets focus solely on the articulation of negative possibilities, however unlikely those possibilities might actually be (i.e. The "Ares I will shake astronauts to death". Many in the general public, and even lawyers and judges, quickly begins to beleive in such wild, speculative "nightmare" myths such as "super weeds" coming from genetic modification of food crops or vaccinations cause Autism. The challenge for true skeptics is that it is not always possible to prove a null hypothesis. It is not possible to prove that Ares I will be totally safe and trouble free.

    It is no surprise that many people have become so set against Ares I that they still refuse to beleive that the NASA/industry Ares I team solved the oscillation issue (An issue that was greatly exaggerated to begin with) months ago.

    Further, the GoF has benefited from the fact that the public is still cognizant of NASA's "culture issues" that were blamed for the Columbia tragedy. Bungling, corruption, and incompetence in the government handling of recent economic, legal and military matters makes it easier for the average person to buy into the GoF claims of NASA deceit and incompetence with Ares I.

    In my opinion, there are, naturally, some REAL issues with Ares I and the NASA management process. Unfortunately, the GoF claims have been more in the noise and interference category than they are in the useful information category.

    These days, a person can create a web page that claims almost anything, no matter how outrageous, and subsequently gather a support community of millions of people. Unfortunately, many wild claims made on the internet are not subject to serious critique or peer review in time to halt their astounding spread.

    I expect that NASA and Ares I will continue to forge ahead as the loud wailing of the GoF slowly fades into the white noise of faded angst campaigns. Remember a few years ago when we were all about to die in a bird flu pandemic? Those doomsday claims were made by genuine medical researchers who did not recognize the fact that their data was flawed. the news media, bloggers, and web experts from every corner of society joined in the festival of fear. The GoF conspiracy theory is also destined for the dust bin of history.
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